Local Gentry
Music Discussion
Latest global searches: gba todos roms pokemon  shannon simmons transando  mensagens de bill gates  doritos caseiro  cashburner 
Top global searches: free hosting  iso for playstation  minnesota pigeon forum  hindi jokes  philippine chess 
Songs of the Earth: A Gustav Mahler Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
 Topic Tags 
There are no Forum Tags

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Local Gentry Forum Index -> -> The Record Room
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:12 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote


Alma Mahler

The 6th obviously sounds dark and tragic, but I’ve always felt it has more subtlety than the tragic ‘thumping’ usually associated with its sound.

There are moments of arresting lyrical, pastoral beauty that hasn’t been discussed enough IMO. In the first and last movements, Mahler’s use of cowbells (a really inspired touch) evokes his hikes up the sides of the Austrian mountains. The third movement (sometimes switched into the 2nd movement spot—more on this later) holds the most tender melodic colorization I’ve ever heard in phrasing and instrumental imagination. Even the wild finale shows an optimistic confidence most of the way, which is effective contrast to the dark coda.

In my mind, Mahler found the right balance between the tragic and the ‘happy’, and he plays out this out realistic by highlighting the happy corners we all find within the dirty ‘city’ of life. He does takes happiness into account, rather than over dramatize the bleak disillusionment.


From Henry-Louis de la Grange, we have a good commentary on the composition of the 6th, which concludes with a consideration of the work’s apparent ‘tragic’ drama:

Unfortunately, very little information is available on the actual composition of the Sixth Symphony since, unlike Natalie Bauer-Lechner [a close and devoted friend of Mahler], Alma Mahler was never a particularly scrupulous observer of her husband's creative life. Through cross-checking, however, it can be established that Mahler—newly married and the father of a little daughter—arrived at Maiernigg on 10 June 1903 and set to work without delay. Alma recalls that he returned from his Häuschen [Mahler’s composing hut] one day and told her that he had tried to evoke her in a theme. 'Whether I've succeeded, I don't know; but you'll have to put up with it'. The theme in question is one of the few 'positive' gestures in the work: it is the second subject of the opening movement, an ascending and descending line in the major, energetic and willful, over which Mahler has written the word 'Schwungvoll' (con brio) in the full score. Whenever he had completed a section of his work, Mahler habitually felt the need to distance himself from it, and his work on the Sixth Symphony was no exception: on 20 July he left Maiernigg for a short train journey to the Dolomites, taking his bicycle with him. Five weeks later, when he returned to Vienna, he had already completed the two middle movements in short score and had undoubtedly sketched the first.

At the beginning of the following summer (1904), Alma's arrival in Maiernigg was delayed by more than two weeks because she had still not recovered from the birth of her second daughter, Anna (known as 'Gucki'). Throughout the month of June, heaven and earth seemed to conspire to prevent Mahler from resuming work on the score. The weather on the Wörthersee was appalling during these long days of solitude and forced inactivity: the sky was overcast, with frequent storms and torrential rain. Mahler read Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray and Tolstoy's grim Confessions. He desultorily played Brahms and Bruckner at the piano, but all the music he looked at left him disillusioned. It was his own lack of creativity, however, that weighed most heavily on him. When he finally returned to his work, it was to complete the Kindertotenlieder. Time passed, and the Sixth Symphony had still not advanced by a single bar, consciously at least. The anxious feeling that so often assailed him—namely, that the well-spring of his art had run dry—continued to obsess him, although he attempted to 'pick up the pieces of his inner self'. By early July, the weather had improved, but suddenly the heat became unbearable. Incapable of enduring it a moment longer, Mahler rewarded himself for the completion of his song cycle and treated himself to a lightning tour of the Dolomites to last until Alma arrived. And it was among the ragged peaks of the Sextener Dolomiten around Sesto that he finally found the inner drive and inspiration that allowed him to finish his new symphony.

By the end of August, when he was preparing to return to Vienna, Mahler was able to announce the completion of the Sixth Symphony to his friends Guido Adler and Bruno Walter. However brief his remarks, they were heavy with evident pride. Yet he had no illusions about the fate that lay in store for his latest symphony, which he knew would have just as much difficulty as its predecessors in establishing a place for itself in the repertory: 'My Sixth will pose conundrums that only a generation that has absorbed and digested my first five symphonies may hope to solve'. Immediately after completing it, he took Alma's arm and solemnly led her to his Häuschen to play the work through for her. By her own admission she was moved to the very depths of her being by the score: 'The Sixth is the most profoundly personal of his works. [...] Not one of them came so directly from his inmost heart as this'.

A young female friend of Alma's has left a highly detailed account of life at Maiernigg during the summer of 1904. Within his family circle, Mahler played Bach at the piano, quoted Goethe and went boating on the lake. To all appearances this was the most peaceful of all the summers that he spent in Carinthia. How, then, can we explain the fact that it was at precisely this time that he wrote the most tragic of all his works? According to Alma, he later recognised in the three hammer blows of the final movement a premonition of the three blows of fate that were to fall on him in 1907: the death of his elder daughter, the diagnosis of a potentially dangerous heart condition and his departure from Vienna.
Be that as it may, none of these catastrophes had struck by May 1906 when Mahler travelled to Essen in the Ruhr to conduct the first performance of his new symphony at the annual festival of the Allgemeiner Deutscher Musikverein. Yet Alma describes his almost pathological state during the rehearsals, his anxiousness, nervousness, instability and the doubts that never ceased to beset and torment him. All the young musicians in his entourage did what they could to rally round and to offer him their advice and support during the rehearsal period. Even more than usual, he kept on polishing and correcting details of the orchestration. If we believe Alma, he 'was so afraid that his agitation might get the better of him that out of shame and anxiety he did not conduct the symphony well'. After the concert, the Dutch conductor Willem Mengelberg expressed concern about his state of health. All in all, it seems as though the fateful work terrified even its creator.


Up next, an alternative view to the idea this work is ‘tragic’…
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:17 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Conductor Benjamin Zander has always said there are perhaps two versions of the 6th:

--The one that Mahler composed.

--And the one that Mahler performed.


This is a controversal view in Mahler scholarship. Mahler once wrote that his 6th would be pose "conundrums" and would be a "hard nut" to crack for future generations. Little did he know that the conundrum would lay in the confusion over the 'correct 'order of the two inner movements...the scherzo and andante. This is sad, in a way, since Mahler was pretty clear about the movement order he wanted, and published his preferred order in the 2nd edition of the score. How the confusion started is an interesting story, and now a part of the work's history and performing tradition.

Okay, lets go over the version Mahler wrote first...the original version...the Symphony as it existed before he tested it out with an orchestra and made his famous changes...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:20 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

The first person to hear the 6th Symphony was Mahler's wife Alma. In August of 1904, he played the whole work for her at the piano. According to Alma, they both "wept that day."

Mahler finshed orchestrating the work during the winter, and by May of 1905, he was ready to send his autograph score to a copyist. Mahler scholar Jerry Bruck writes:

It is here, in the autograph score, that Mahler’s concern about the inner-movement order of the Sixth becomes apparent. The title page of each of these movements bears an Arabic numeral to indicate its position in the symphony—e.g., “Scherzo (2)” and “Andante (3).” Mahler overwrote these numerals, renumbering these pages “Scherzo (3)” and “Andante (2)... It is not clear when he undertook to reorder these inner movements, for in the copyist’s score the Roman numerals indicating the positions of these movements correspond to their original S-A order in the autograph. But these Roman numerals are entered in pencil, not ink, leading us to wonder if that indicates some last-minute hesitation. In any case, Mahler’s decision to alter his original sequence of movements to A-S must have come too late to affect Kahnt’s publication of the Sixth.

In the autumn of that year, Mahler sent the "fair copy" of the score to his publisher, C.F. Kahnt, who published the first edition in three formats: a large folio-format conducting score, a smaller quarto-size “study score” and a full-size four-hand piano reduction. Kahnt also commissed musicologist Richard Sprecht to write a guide, a "thematic analyses" to accompany the three scores for students and concert goers encountering the 6th for the first time.

At this stage, the Symphony was in this form:

Allegro energico
Scherzo
Andante moderato
Finale (with the 3 hammer blows intact)


Presumably, this was the order that Alma heard at the piano back in 1904.

Jerry Bruck continues the story:

All three scores...were ready in time for the premiere.
That event was to be the concluding concert of a weeklong music
festival of the Allgemeiner Deutscher Musikverein (German Music
Association) held in Essen in May 1906. Previously Mahler, who for
several years had been Principal Conductor of the Vienna Philharmonic
until his near-fatal hemorrhage in 1901, had asked that orchestra
as a favor to read through the symphony. On May 1, a year to the day
after completing his autograph score, Mahler at last got to experience
his Sixth in full orchestral garb. A fortnight later he left for Essen to
begin rehearsals for the premiere.

Mahler’s chosen assistant during the rehearsals was Klaus Pringsheim,
already at 23 a vocal coach at the Vienna Opera. Pringsheim greatly
admired Mahler and was thrilled to be asked to accompany him to
Essen. He later recalled Mahler’s feverish efforts to refine the symphony’s
orchestration in the course of the week of intensive rehearsals with the
festival orchestra. At last Mahler’s doubts about the order of the
Sixth’s inner movements would have to be resolved. Possibly he had
experimented during that initial read-through in Vienna, although the
renumbering of those movements in the autograph score suggests that
Mahler might have entertained doubts as much as a year earlier. In any
case the matter came to a head while rehearsing for the premiere in
Essen.

Mahler’s initial indecision is evidenced by the reversed timings
of these movements scrawled in blue pencil in a corner of the title
page of his conducting score. Here, the A-S timings of
the inner movements are overwritten with those corresponding to S-A.

These timings, radically different from those reported of the Essen premiere,
also differ from those given in Specht’s “Thematic Analysis”
and elsewhere. This suggests that they were taken during the
rehearsals in Essen, since we know Mahler never again conducted from
this score, which he revised and sent off to Kahnt a few months later.

Following the final rehearsal Mahler at last made the decision to
exchange the positions of the Sixth’s inner movements: The Andante
would now precede the Scherzo. He reportedly requested that slips of
paper be inserted into the printed programs to advise concertgoers
that the order shown there (and in the three scores published thus far)
had been changed.

Meanwhile, Alma had arrived in Essen, just in time
for the last rehearsals. She describes in her biography of Mahler his
agitation preceding the performance, which she attributes to his intuiting
the “dark omen” underlying the “three great blows of fate” in the
Finale. However, she makes no mention of his reversal of the order of
the inner movements.


So, why is the order of the inner movements, the scherzo and andante, so important? The order does make an emotional and structural difference on the work. This will be addressed later.


Coming next...The "public" version of the 6th...the version that gets performed in Mahler's time...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Mahler conducted the 6th Symphony on May 27, 1906. This was first time the public got to hear this radical, new work. The movements of the 6th were performed in the new revised order:

Allegro energico
Andante moderato
Scherzo
Finale (with the 3 hammer blows still intact)


After the performance, Mahler wanted to make sure those buying the score knew about his recent revision regarding the andante-scherzo. He had his publisher place erratum slips in all the unsold 1st edition copies of the conductor, study, and piano reduction scores. Obviously, Mahler had made up his mind about the structure.

During the summer after the premiere, Mahler set about to revise the score for a 2nd edition. Jerry Bruck continues:

By August of 1906 Mahler was ready to send his revised conducting score
to Kahnt to serve as the engraver’s model for the publication of a new
full score of the Sixth. Curiously, when referring to the Sixth in her
memoirs, Alma seems to have been unaware not only of the reversal of
its inner movements, but that Mahler had also deleted the last of the
three fate-forecasting Hammerschläge (hammer-blows).


Did Mahler quietly make this revision without telling his wife? I’m not sure, but we do know that Alma witnessed his anxiety at the premiere, which she attributed to the “’dark omen’ underlying the ‘three great blows of fate’ in the finale.”

Mahler’s revision here reminds me of Dylan’s lyrical revisions for some of his songs on Blood On The Tracks. Dylan’s revised songs were wonderful, but they aren’t as personal, or naked. In my opinion, the 6th has more bite and fear with the scherzo played before the andante, and with the third hammer blow left in. The first version of the 6th is as intimate as Mahler and Alma alone together…crying at the piano in their house, or on an outing with their children, who laugh but also cry, and play in the sun.

At the same time, I can appreciate Mahler’s revision…the emotional impact of the work takes on another story when the andante is played before the Scherzo. When the andante is played right after the 1st movement (when ends in a major key), it can be heard as a tender interlude, a daydream, perhaps an illusion of happiness, especially if the conductor shortens the length (by speeding up the tempo) and doesn’t exaggerate the swells, upheaval and romance of the strings. I’ve read opinions that suggest the best interpretation of the andante (played before the scherzo) is one that acts like a entr’acte, or lyrical break avoiding a dramatic swell of emotion…plays it subtler. I tend to agree with this.

If the andante is played after the Scherzo, it sounds better to let loose and really play up the cliché romantic swells and turn it into a real journey, like Bernstein and Karajan does. Here the andante is an ocean of bliss…a love that is killing the hero…binding him to existence with no mercy…an existence of physical and emotional attraction he can’t turn from, can’t escape, yet still so beautiful. Placed third, the andante is a perfect introduction to the final curtain of the finale.

Next…Mahler premieres the 6th in Vienna…
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:28 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Interlude

Sir John’s Barbirolli’s famous recording of the 6th from 1968.



Barbirolli…famous for his Mahler interpretations

I was listening to this tonight, and was again blown away by its majestic ‘deep chasm’ muscle. It is bleak to the extreme, and glorious in the darkness. It is considered one of the most unique recordings of the 6th…a kind of mutant. It has none of the panic and hysteria heard in the Bernstein Vienna philharmonic Orchestra account (on DG). This interpretation is depression itself, and serious as a heart attack. Even the pastoral sections are heavy with a large burden, sinking with the heaviness of the hero. Yet Barbirolli seems so obsessed (you can hear him humming a lot as he conducts)! He makes the work earn its money by pulling out all the stops, and pulling the threads that should hold everything together…yet in this work, there is something wonderful about hearing existence fall apart emotionally…the grief, the sadness, the disillusionment.

The power of this interpretation just cannot be denied. Even listeners who hate it agree this should be in everyone’s collection…at least to provide contrast from other recordings.

I’m discussing it here because Barbirolli always played the Andante before the Scherzo. He believed in Mahler’s final thoughts about the structure. Now you can hear a great interpretation of the andante-scherzo version.
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:30 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Mahler conducts the 6th for the Vienna premiere...

Mahler's publisher (Kahnt) prepared a new 2nd edition to the 6th Symphony (to reflect Mahler's revisions), and sent out the erratum slips to be placed in all the unsold 1st edition copies. It took alot of work, time and expense to engrave the new revisions for the conducter, study, and four-hand piano scores. By November of 1906 the new scores were published. Mahler sent the score to various colleagues, such as conducter Willem Mengelberg in Amsterdam. Mahler's colleague Oskar Fried premiered the work in Berlin and Mahler himself conducted the Munich premiere. Jerry Bruck notes that all of these performances used the new movement order of Allergo-Andante-Scherzo-Finale.

Jerry Bruck writes about the Vienna premiere:

With Kahnt’s three revised scores now available, Mahler finally
presented the Sixth to the Viennese on January 4, 1907.
Mounting criticism of what were perceived as Mahler’s autocratic
demands as Director of the Hofoper, coupled with his frequent
absences from Vienna to conduct his own works, had primed the pens
of those critics already less than sympathetic to Mahler as man and
musician. Nor would Mahler’s seemingly capricious last-minute
switch of the Sixth’s inner movements escape the notice of an increasingly
hostile press.

A total of 14 reviewers covered the event, their press notices mirroring
the reactions of a divided and demonstrative audience.Two of the
reviewers claimed that Mahler had switched the inner movements
from the order printed in the program. Heinrich Reinhardt (Neues
Wiener Journal, January 5, 1907) gave free rein to a sarcastic and
openly savage attack on Mahler personally and as Director of the
Hofoper. Although Reinhardt claimed that the Scherzo was played as
the second movement, his description is so garbled that one is tempted
to wonder if he was actually present at the concert. The other S-A [scherzo-andante]
reviewer, Carl Lafite (Wiener Allgemeine Zeitung, January 7, 1907),
does describe the music more recognizably, though not more charitably.

In any case, their reports are at odds with those of a dozen other
critics, who identified the movement order as agreeing with the concert
program. Writers who seize upon these two reviews as proof of Mahler’s
continued uncertainty about the order of the Sixth’s inner movements
either are unaware of or choose to ignore the overwhelming number of
reports from the bulk of the critics, as well as the order of movements
shown in the concert program.

It is clear that Mahler once again—and, as it happened, for the last
time—did conduct his Sixth Symphony still with its Andante preceding
its Scherzo.However, the stage was now set for later confusion and
misunderstanding. The disagreement among reviewers reflected and
further compounded the disagreement between the two sets of scores
by then in circulation, for Kahnt’s original and subsequent publications
were unfortunately identical in outward appearance. All were
dated 1906, with no indication of which one had superseded the other.
Both sets of orchestral scores bore the same plate number, 4162, and
both scores of Zemlinsky’s piano reduction had plate number 4649.


As Bruck says, the stage is now set for the future controversy regarding the Andante-Scherzo order, and the later critical edition (from the 60's) that will change the performance history of this work.

Before we continue this story...I'd like to consider a possible weakness in the work that may have influenced Mahler's decision to reverse his original Scerzo-Andante concept...

Next...Stephen Chakwin's interesting consideration regarding Mahler's 6th...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:31 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

The following article is a strong case for the integrity of Mahler's original plan to have the scherzo played after the 1st movement.

In this article, you will read a few items I have already brought up, regarding the composition history and performance history of the 6th...other items will be new, such as Alma's famous telegram to conductor Willem Mengelberg...I will cover these in more detail later.

Before you read this, it is helpful to remember the first movement of the 6th ends in a major key (which is rather rare for a 1st movement written in a minor key).

The Scherzo is in the same key (A Minor) as the first movement, so if Mahler would have left it as the second movement, he would have had two movements in A Minor next to each other, pretty much unheard of in any Symphony. A weakness? Or a stength?

Okay, lets consider this article...

Mahler’s Sixth Symphony in Context: What
the History of Minor-Key Symphonies Can Tell Us about Mahler’s Decision about
Movement Order


by Stephen D. Chakwin, Jr.

“How can an artist expect that what he
has felt intuitively should be perfectly understood by other people, since he
himself feels in the presence of his work, if it is genuine art, that he is
faced by a riddle about which he too may have illusions, just as another person
may?”
Richard Wagner, letter dated 25 January 1854 to August

Introduction:

This article explores some aspects of the unusual form of
Mahler’s Sixth Symphony as a way of gaining insight into his decision to switch
the order of the middle movements from Scherzo-Andante, the order he chose for
the first published version of the score and that he seems to have envisioned
during the composition process itself, to Andante-Scherzo, the order he adopted
at the Symphony’s first performance in Essen in 1906 and that he maintained for
the handful of times that he conducted the piece during his lifetime. It
postulates that the reason that Mahler changed the movement order may have been
his realization of the structural problem he created for himself with the way he
ended his first movement as well as the ongoing problem he had with critical
opinion in his lifetime. What Mahler did by this expedient was conceal his
Symphony’s structural problem at the expense of undermining the greater
coherence of the work and the carefully built transitions between the movements.
It is, of course, impossible to know with absolute certainty why Mahler did
this: he left no written explanation of his decision.

In addition, it is impossible to know for sure whether he later changed his mind and decided that his original plan for the order of movements should be reinstated. We know that Alma sent a famous telegram to Willem Mengelberg stating that the Scherzo should be second and know of no reason why Alma would wish the movements to be played in
an incorrect order or would lie about what the correct order should be. The
question remains an open one, although musically Scherzo-first seems to present
a much stronger piece.



Background:
The story of the Sixth leading up to the famous
movement switch is a familiar one, but it’s worth reexamining briefly. As far as
can be told from the existing evidence, Mahler’s composition scheme
was originally for the movement order to have the first movement followed by the
scherzo followed in turn by Andante followed by the Finale. This sequence with
its resulting transitions is one that the Sixth’s structure seems to dictate in
many ways. The loud A major ending of the first movement is followed by the loud
A- minor opening of second, immediately contradicting the resolution and
stability implied by the major key ending, carrying that movement’s
major-to-minor theme forward in a daring way (which composer before Mahler used
the sheer tonality of two adjacent movements as either a reflection or an actual
statement of a theme common to both of them; and, of course, taking the A-minor
first theme, F-major second theme-world of the first movement and turning it
upside down into a very different A minor first theme F major second-theme place.

The Scherzo is a kind of decompensation of the first movement. The odd opening
rhythm with accents on both the third and the first beats of the 3/8 rhythm
suggests a mockery of the stride of the opening of first movement and the first
theme itself seems to mock the F major second theme of the first movement (which
was, of course, the basis for its joyful coda). The second theme also mocks
elements of the first movement, but these
seem to be primarily elements of the first movement’s first theme, the marching
tread, garlanded with simpering interjections and measures of the falling fourths
that powered the coda of the first movement to its triumph, here pointlessly repeated
like liquidations in a Baroque or Classical piece. The repetitions contribute to
heightening tension of his structure, just as such figures function in a
symphony work by Haydn or Beethoven. The transition from the Scherzo to the
Andante movement is equally well crafted. After the diabolical machine of the
Scherzo has built itself up to a climax that is the last of Mahler’s “shrieks of
horror,” the movement seems to run out of power. Its energy is dissipated
into fragments of its themes. The 3/8 rhythm has lost its third beat accent and
cannot even stay in a steady triple rhythm any more (it keeps straying into the
quadruple rhythm of 2/4) and the melodic elements sink deeper and deeper into
the bass register against a background of the major to minor “eclipse” until all
energy is spent and only a quiet, sluggish evocation of the minor third that
defines A minor is left. After this, there is nothing more to say about – or in
–A minor, at least for a while.

So Mahler takes us to the remote key of E-flat
and to the seemingly remote musical territory of an interlude based on “The Last
Rose of Summer.” “Seemingly” is an important word here because much of this
movement is actually based on material familiar from the first movement and
Scherzo lightly disguised by inversion, transposition, or fragmentation. The
dynamic transition from Scherzo to the Andante movement is perfect: the Andante
movement’s pianissimo opening is a soothing response to the grim piano of the
Scherzo’s ending and the remote key is a palpable relief after all that A
minor/Fmajor33. Unless you listen carefully, you may not be aware of the hint
at the fourth full measure of a transition from E-flat minor to E-flat major, but
it is an important (and, at least subliminally comforting) contradiction of the
major-to-minor sequence that dominated both the first movement and the Scherzo
and the transition between them. The opening “puff of smoke”34of the final
movement is again perfectly set up. The transition from the peaceful quiet of E
flat major to the sinister quiet of C minor is not only dynamically convincing
and harmonically coherent, but it is also carefully prepared. The notes of the
opening chord of the fourth movement – C, E-flat, G-flat, and A-flat – are all
prominent in the last eight measures or so of the Andante. Planted in the ear, as
it were, for the quite different context in which they are about to emerge.
Mahler may very well not have been consciously aware of all of these links and
transitions (see the incipit to this article), but he created them and, unless we
are prepared to accept that artistic creation is more the product of chance than
of craft, would have been aware of them on some level. How is it that he came to
abandon the structure that made them all work and replace it with a very
different and seemingly more random one? We know that the Scherzo-first design
was set forth in the first printed score and lasted through Mahler’s reading of
the Symphony with the Vienna Philharmonic.

De La Grange reports that the
Andante-first order was adopted by Mahler during the 1906 rehearsals for the
Essen premiere. Or to be more specific, it occurred after ongoing
Uncertainty about the orchestration and, finally, the movement order of the
work. According to Klaus Pringsheim, who was present in Essen:


Those close to him were well aware of Mahler’s
"uncertainty". Even after the final rehearsal he was still not sure whether or
not he had found the right tempo for the Scherzo, and he wondered whether he
should invert the order of the second and third movements (which he subsequently
did). He kept on making changes and improvements. After each rehearsal he asked
everyone around him, musicians and friends, for their impressions, trying to
determine down to the smallest technical detail, to what extent, in their
impression on the listener, he had achieved what he intended.


De La Grange suggests that Mahler’s movement-order change in Essen may be attributed to his documented insecurity at the time, specifically to comments about the resemblance
between the openings of the first and second movements. My own suspicion is
slightly different. It is a near certainty that Mahler was told by listeners that
the openings of the first two movements were very, perhaps too, similar to each
other, but I suspect that he realized a deeper weakness in his work, one that
came from one of his most imaginative strokes. To understand this, we have to
digress and take a look at the history of the classical minor-key symphony.


Next...Chakwin's discusses the classic minor key symphonies...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:32 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Chakwin's article continued...

Classical Minor-Key Symphonies:

It seems best to leave aside the pre-Classical
symphonies and sinfonias of Johan Sebastian Bach’s children and their
contemporaries, along with the works of composers such as the Stamitzes,
Boccherini, Cherubini, and others, since Mahler in all probability did not
Know those works and hardly would have relied on them as models, Table 1 contains
an overview of minor-key symphonies over the roughly 130 years preceding Mahler’s
Sixth.


Table I. An Overview of Selected Minor-Key Symphonies from Haydn to Bruckner


Haydn:
no. 26 D minor/1st movement ends in Major
no. 34 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 39 G minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 44 E minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 45 F# minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 49 F minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 52 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 78 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 80 D minor/1st movement ends in Major
no. 83 G minor/1st movement ends in Major
no. 95 C minor/1st movement ends in Major

Mozart:
no. 25 G minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 40 G minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Beethoven:
no. 5 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 9 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Schubert:
no. 4 C minor/1st movement ends in Major
no. 8 B minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Mendelssohn:
no. 1 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 3 A minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 5 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Schumann:
no. 4 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Brahms:
no. 1 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no.4 E minor/1st movement ends in Minor

Dvorak:
no. 1 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 4 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 7 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 9 E minor/Minor

Tchaikovsky:
no. 1 G minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 2 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 4 F minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 5 E minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 6 B minor/1st movement ends in Major

Bruckner:
no. 1 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 2 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 3 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 8 C minor/1st movement ends in Minor
no. 9 D minor/1st movement ends in Minor


continued...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:33 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Chakwin's article continued...

The Table lists 37 minor-key symphonies by the ten major symphonic
composers before Mahler, ranging from Haydn to Bruckner. Of these symphonies,
all but six have first movements ending in the minor key and each of these six
is a kind of aberration.

As we shall see, the closest thing to a
structural antecedent to Mahler’s work was actually none of these, but the 1887
version of Bruckner’s Eighth Symphony, which was almost certainly unknown to
Mahler and was rewritten by the composer after the conductor Hermann Levi
refused to perform it.

The general model of a minor-key symphony was more or
less established by Haydn with his Symphony no. 44 (1772): the first movement
has a first theme in the minor and a contrasting second theme in a major key,
with the movement ending in the minor; he follows with a minuet, usually minor
with contrasting major key trio; slow movement; and Finale, in the tonic minor,
which takes up the undischarged minor key discourse of the first movement (at
least in tonality and sometimes in actual thematic material) and works it to a
resolution. Variants of that structure appear in all of the symphonies listed
in the Table. For a composer attempting to create a through-composed
symphony, this is a useful plan.

In Western “classical” music, at least from the
recognition of tonality onward, the minor key has been traditionally perceived as
unstable and implying a need for further resolution. The Picardy third probably
developed in performance and composition as a result of perception: it was a way
of allowing the listener to know that the piece had ended, despite the minor-key
conclusion. In the context of a symphony, the unresolved nature of a minor-key
first-movement conclusion is a powerful unifying device. Nobody could listen to
the ending of the first movements of Beethoven’s Fifth Symphony or Schumann’s
Fourth – to take two obvious examples – and not know that there is more to come.
Using the tonic minor for the dance movement, whether it is a minuet or a
scherzo, reinforces that anticipation and the Finale, at least in a successful
symphony, satisfies it.



Joseph Haydn (1732-1809)

The six symphonies, four of which are by Haydn, with major-key
first-movement endings fall outside this pattern. Haydn’s Symphony no. 26,which
dates from before 1770, is one of his earliest experiments with a minor-key
symphony and is in three short movements. His Symphony no. 80 has an opening
movement similar in structure and brevity to that of Symphony no. 26 and does not
fall into the pattern: not only does the first movement end in the major key of
the second subject, but the Finale doesn’t attempt to pick up any minor key
energy from the first movement or the minuet: it is in the tonic major. Haydn’s
Symphony no. 83 is also not a standard minor-key symphony: the stormy opening is
a set-up promptly undercut by the clucking major-key theme that gives this work
its nickname, “The Hen.”

Finally, the minor-key tonality of his Symphony no. 95
is only a gesture that appears only in the first movement’s introduction (and
its reappearance later in the movement)and functions more as a call to attention
than as an anchor to the work’s tonality. The work as a whole really much closer
in spirit and form to the other London Symphonies that are in major keys
with minor-key first movement introductions. Schubert’s “little” C-minor
Symphony, subtitled, like Mahler’s, “Tragic,” has a first movement which
resembles those of Haydn’s Symphonies nos. 26 and 80: the minor tonality is most
prominent in the exposition but even there is outweighed by the major-key second
theme that sets the stage for the sunny conclusion of the movement.
Tchaikovsky’s Symphony no. 6 in B-minor is yet another special case. We know
from all but one of his other symphonies that he was fond of minor tonalities and
had no hesitation about ending a first movement
the tonic minor.


Continued...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:35 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote


Peter Illich Tchaikovsky (1840-1893)

In his [Tchaikovsky’s] Symphony no. 6, he chose to end
the first movement with a kind of eulogy in B major. No triumph there. None of
these works appears to have been a candidate for a model of Mahler’s Sixth
Symphony. Would he have even known these half-dozen pieces? He could have known
Schubert’s Symphony in C minor, which was published in 1884-85 as part of the
critical edition edited by Brahms, but there is no record that he ever performed
it, let alone evidence to suggest that he studied it. Mahler was familiar with
the Tchaikovsky’s Symphony as of at least 1901, when he dismissed it in a
discussion with Guido Adler as empty and lacking inspiration. There is no
indication that this major-key first movement ending was an inspiration for the
very different one in Mahler’s Sixth (although the work itself was very likely an
inspiration for the structure of Mahler’s Ninth Symphony). It is also unlikely
that the failed first version of Bruckner’s Eighth Symphony was a structural
model for Mahler. Although Mahler knew Bruckner well from his studies in Vienna,
we have no indication that he would have seen or even known about the Eighth
when it was completed in 1887. (Mahler served as second conductor at the Neues
Stadttheater, Leipzig, from July 1886, when his appointment took effect, until
his resignation in May 1888.)



Anton Bruckner (1824-1896)

Bruckner’s C-minor Symphony, though, is worth
looking at a little more closely, if only as an example of parallel invention. We
don’t know details about why Levi rejected it, but it is hard to imagine that the
tonal full-stop brought about by the triumphant C-major coda to the
C-minor opening movement was not a major factor, if not the major factor, in this
decision. With the tensions of the first movement gathered and resolved in this
coda, the listener is in effect not invited to stay tuned to the Symphony, but to
start all over again. Levi would likely have been as puzzled by this as anyone
else steeped in the symphonic culture of the time and could well have thought
the result structurally unworkable, like a tone poem followed by a
three-movement symphony.


Continued...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:36 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Conclusion of Chakwin's article...

Mahler’s Sixth in Context:

The coda of the first movement
of Mahler’s Sixth Symphony is one of those minor-to-major key trouble spots, akin
to the corresponding sections in the Finales of Mozart’s Piano Concerto in D
minor, K. 466, and the Piano Quartet in G minor, K. 478, in which the
major-key sections can all too easily sound “tacked on” and unconvincing. While
some commentators have suggested that Mahler wanted his coda to sound
unconvincing, the writing itself suggests otherwise: it is consistent with the
triumphant codas in his other works and there is nothing in the 37 bars that it
consists of that explicitly undercuts it.

So what was Mahler trying to do in the
coda? I suggest that he was attempting several things: first, to bring contrast
in the form of a triumphant major-key movement ending into a symphony that
he already knew was going to end in the minor; second to expand on his dramatic
innovation in the first movement by using tonality itself as a theme by using
this “tonality theme” to link movements in a way that had never been done before
– with a theme actually spanning the break between them; and finally, to use
whatever unarticulated program he may have had for the piece as a guide to its
structure. In doing this, Mahler must have realized the trap he was setting
himself. Unlike virtually all the previous minor-key symphonies he would have
known, his would resolve the first movement in the tonic major.
How would he get out of Bruckner’s “full stop” trap?

Very simply, the thematic relationship between the first and
second movements would propel the listener forward. The eclipse theme would span
the movements and pull the listener into the Scherzo. Once into the Scherzo, the
listener would be drawn forward by its energy and the resolution of the first
movement would be no problem. What went wrong? My speculation is that Mahler did
not make the change because of the resemblance between the opening material of
his first two movements. As Brahms would have observed “any ass could see that”.

That Mahler would have realized this only in the dress rehearsals in Essen after
writing the music, proofing it for publication, and reading through it with the
Vienna Philharmonic strains credibility . I suggest that Mahler realized more
and more clearly, perhaps with the aid of feedback from the Essen listeners that
his first-movement coda was going to seem, not like a triumphant though
temporary, conclusion, like a journey to nowhere, placed gratuitously at the end
of his first movement and undercut by the second.

This was undoubtedly the
reason for his great concern for the tempo of the Scherzo: How could he pace the
music so that its parody of the first movement was clear, but it didn’t seem to
be simply a return to the world of first movement after a pointless digression?
We know from de La Grange’s account of the Sixth’s Vienna performances that the
critics there were perceptive and merciless. Could Mahler get his coda past
their scrutiny?

I suggest that he reluctantly decided that he could not. Faced
with that decision, what was he to do? A longer, more worked-out coda could have
anchored the end of the first movement more firmly in A major, but there was no
time to write one and no assurance that moving from such an ending to the
scherzo would be any more convincing. Reworking the Scherzo was similarly
impracticable. Mahler’s solution was to conceal the problem by moving the
components of it away from each other.

With the Andante thrust between the
opening movement and the Scherzo, the A major coda became a journey to
somewhere, even if a somewhere that makes much less dramatic sense in context
(The bittersweet tone of the Andante and its passionate climax seem so much more
powerful and appropriate after the grim struggles of the first movement and the
nihilistic mocking of the Scherzo With only the first movement behind it, the
huge emotion of the Andante – if it is allowed to speak – seems overblown:
What in the first movement led to this?

On the other hand, if the emotion is
toned down and the movement played as a kind of light interlude – perhaps like
the second Nachtmusik movement in Symphony no. 7 – it seems pointless and even
vapid and Mahler’s great climax at the end, with the huge buildup and soaring
descants of his most earnest lyrical moments, provokes only puzzlement instead
of the deep emotion he usually meant such moments to convey. Perhaps
under Mahler’s own baton the circle was somehow squared, but I doubt it).
And the immediate problem was solved, at least for the time being.

Unfortunately, the time being was all the time that Mahler had.
He never had the chance in the five eventful years of life that
remained to him to do more structural work on
the Sixth. So the interim solution was what was left. Or was it? Where Are We
Now? The story of the confusion involving movement order in the preparation for
the 1920 Mahler Festival in Amsterdam and Alma’s telegram is too well-known to
require retelling here.

While it is impossible to know for sure where Alma got
her information, it is beyond dispute that she had no motive to intentionally
misrepresent or second-guess Mahler’s wishes for the final order of the
movements in the work and equally beyond dispute that both Mengelbergs, Willem, the
conductor, and Rudolf, the musicologist, found the solution she suggested
convincing. So have most of the conductors who have performed the work since the
publication of the 1963 critical edition. We are now left with two plausible
performing options for this symphony. One being the product of careful planning
and deep structural thinking, the other, I suggest, the product of fear under
pressure. The strongest argument in favor of Scherzo-first is that of the music
itself. The strongest in favor of Andante-first is that Mahler chose it. Neither
is a negligible argument, but in my view, ultimately the music speaks louder than
its creator on this subject.


Next...Alma sends a telegram...
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

interlude...

Nick T. wrote:
So Barbirolli's 6th, alright, it's interesting. It's great actually. It seems most assuredly modern, but not modern in the sense of Bartok's or Shostakovich's history raiding amalgams of folk music for its primalness to spice up their futuristic pieces, but more of a contemporary everyday man's music of the time. It’s still patchwork, but meshing rather than clashing or laying one overtop another. I can hear his influence on many Hollywood scores, maybe that's naive of me but that's what I felt. I know Korngold, Shost. and Stravinsky were visitors or residents over there in LA, but that was like in the 30’s right?


Right on about Mahler's influence on Hollywood scores...I agree here. I even hear Mahler's orchestration in John Williams. I swear...the composer who wrote music for the first Star Trek movie was lifting stuff from the second movement of Mahler's 7th...it's so close that I think of Mahler's 7th as the Star Trek symphony.

Yeah, I'm sure Korngold (and the rest you mentioned) all hail from the 20's, 30's and etc...Mahler's influence I think would actually hit stronger within the 60's decade, yet Schoenberg and Alban Berg (20's and 30's) did get influenced by Mahler's orchestration. Ever heard Berg's 3 Pieces Op.9? Highly recommended and I'll post this when I get to Mahler's 9th.

Nick T. wrote:
It's maybe more, actually no, much more thoughtful in the use of percussion in symphony than Bartok or Messaien, playing a literal role in storytelling and a useful part in the structure rather than giving a mass of sound effect [I'm in the minority on that take but I just don't like their over-use of weird percussive effects. Like a clusterfuck of sand blocks] One thing I found difficult or maybe different was it's restlessness and swiftness and no real theme to it--but this is only my first and a half reading of it, I will say at the least it was not obvious and wait for further times where it might reveal a structure I missed. Not the first time for that. And if you've been listening to Bruckner, well that probably made it glaring, you know when you get kind of used to the way someone slaps you around with a tire iron for days on end you kind of miss it when they stop.


Interesting insight there, and something I wouldn't have picked up on, since I haven't heard much Bartok or Messaien. It seems Mahler always treated his large orchestra as a chamber orchestra, and he wrote quite economically...only going over the top in his most ironic moments or to be vulgar on purpose (as in the 1st mov. of the 3rd Symphony).

Yeah, I'm very new to Bruckner and I'm still lost at sea during many moments. Bruckner's sense of musical form is vast, but highly integreted and formal...actually love how Bruckner can be epic, yet keep a hold on the musical form with as much sophistication as Brahms.

Nick T. wrote:
I tried not to read too much as not to spoil the freshness of my listen, or to keep myself honest I guess. Earlier though, scanning the thread I noticed tragic being thrown around. The first movement was almost finished before I remembered I was supposed to be moistening up! I was relieved to see, now reading parts of the essays on the sym, that the 1st mov. is considered/supposed to be uplifting. I found many moments of clear beauty in it, it DID evoke the mountainside and I particularly enjoyed the cowbells. It looks like the only tragedy he had when writing this was professional not personal, more of a structural and creative obstacle natural to most artists--before all the bad stuff started. I agree with Ruttenberg, one wouldn't march gaily into death or an awful fate, one would advance with resignation. The fool would march like that though. An idea--Mahler placed tragedy on it because his future woes colored everything even his past elations.


More great insights here regarding the Tradegy theme...yes, perhaps Mahler was operating on a more intellectual struggle, having a discourse between form and ideas, rather than acting out a personal drama...interesting.

Quote:
I see Walter and Mengelberg, oh boy they're great! Sad, when they're mentioned as friends of Mahler it drives home what a shame it really is that there is no recording of Mahler conducting anything out there. Sometimes I think I'm drawn more to the cult of the Conductor than the Composer. They used to be the same beast, but in the recorded era it seems to be one or the other. Bernstein the only one with authority in both realms? Stravinsky, Pendereski lack the charisma, Celibidache and Furtwangler sure, composed but nothing comparable say to like Mozart conducting and improvising from the keyboard.


That would be the Holy Grail for modern music...footage, or a recording of Mahler conducting!

I am also drawn into the cult of the conductor...I like Bernstein's works, and I'm actually very interested in hearing Furtwangler's own Symphonic works...have you heard them?

Quote:
The Barbirolli definitely has muscle but I haven't reached the darkness or tragic blasts yet. I have to finish, although I agree it's not manic at all, more investigative and searching, thrusting forward like a dog’s wet nose. Pretty ignorant when it comes to Mahler (and all things actually) but it's making for some fresh listening. Reading some of the text but saving more for when I finish it. I do really appreciate the stuff you've just been upping about the actual FORM of the music--very interesting and factual--not just interpretations but analysis of the structure, the craftwork involved in composing. Fascinating.


I feel Barbirolli to be one of the darkest interpetations out there, but not in a 'over the top' sense...more like a slow inquiry on ordinary life and death...I agree this is a searching interpetation. By "dark" I guess I'm referring to a underlying cynicism on Barbirolli's part.

Thanks again for your post Nick...look forward to hearing what you think of the rest of this work.
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:41 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Jérôme wrote:
Yes, it's been a little hard for me too to find some time to listen to that 6th in good conditions but little by little I managed to listen to the whole of Barbirolli and Bernstein. And after two or three listens, that last movement finally became less obscure and really fascinating... At first you find yourself lost but after a few listens you become familiar with the themes and the motives that come back again and again through all the movement and it becomes so much easier. Actually last week I had the same attitude while listening to Mahler's 5th symphony, which I knew before, though not too well (1st movement and the well-known Adagietto). I drew more attention to the small motives that keep coming back in different tones, combinations and modes and I think I've been listening to Mahler as I never did before. I fully realized how the way he handles those short motives is an integral quality of his music and it made me appreciate it so much more.


It took me along time to appreciate the finale...now I love this rollar coaster ride. I see the form or structure of the finale as a huge sonata movement, with a slow intro, Exposition, development, recapitualation (sp?) and coda...on a large scale of course. A kind of Haydn-symphonic-1st movement...expanded beyond reason. The 6th seems to one of Mahler's most successful exercises in musical form...it is a very tight classical work despite the large expanse.

Quote:
For a long time I've been very fond of some parts of Mahler's music but I was a little puzzled with the rest... or it didn't move me. Of course that way of listening has been more rewarding with the 6th which is a more difficult work. But so incredible... I'm not an expert in symphonic music but at that point it seems like what music is able to convey (with orchestral writing taken to that point of expressiveness) is simply fascinating.
However, having listened to Zander's comments on the three hammer blows, I noticed something that I can't explain. Both Barbirolli and Bernstein play the revised version of the symphony with the third hammer blow removed, right? But in Bernstein's version I can hear another massive hammer blow at the end of the last crescendo (29'14). Actually it really sounds like it, especially when you compare it to Barbirolli's version where what you hear at that point is clearly a timpani. Could someone enlighten me? Thank you.


Yes, both Barbirolli and Bernstein perform the versin without the hammer blows. In the Bernstein version...it's the timpini being struck extremely hard per Bernstein's request, and yes...it does sound like a third hammer blow there! Bernstein is pulling out all the stops here!

Glad you enjoying the 6th!
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:43 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Nick T. wrote:
Star Trek=Jerry Goldsmith I think! For some darn reason the music to Gilliam's Time Bandits kept creeping up in the back of my mind while listening to the 6th!


Oh yeah! I remember the music in the Napoleon scene sounds alot like the 6th!!! Funny!

Quote:
So...Gustav went over big with Berg and Schoenberg eh? That's very interesting but yeah, I can see it especially in what I know of Mahler and those string runs in the 10th. I'm sure I've heard that Berg composition at least once but I'm not familiar with it, so please and thank you's in advance. Re--over the top percussive effect--I like the idea of a composer being vulgar on purpose, and that's a good slant I might take back to those other symphonic pieces of Bartok's and Messiaen's. Regarding the finale -- "A kind of Haydn-symphonic-1st movement...expanded beyond reason." That's great!


As a matter of fact, Berg attended the premiere of Mahler's 9th (conducted after Mahler's death by Bruno Walter)...and also studied the score of the 9th...in one his letters to his wife, Berg mentions playing the 1st movement on the piano. I'l try to find the exact quote later. Berg became a good friend to Alma, and dedicated his last work, the Violin Concerto to Alma's daughter, who died at 18 years old. Schoenberg saw Mahler conduct the premiere of the 3rd, and said he heard the struggle between good and evil during the performance. Mahler went to the performance of Schoenberg's Verlacke Nacht (spelling?) and supported Schoenberg's compositions. Interesting connections!

There was a time when I was put off by Mahler's apparent obession with being purposely vulgar and sarcastic, but after hearing Karajan's famous recording of the 9th (with the Berlin Phil) I changed my mind. I realized more what Mahler brought to modern music...a sense of irony, sarcasm, and bitterness that with the right conductor, can lead to a crisis of understanding and admission of beauty inherent within ordinary life.

I feel Haydn also was sarcastic and vulgar, especially if you compare him with his younger contempary Mozart. Beethoven of course also enjoyed a vacation from strict musical precedures and loved a good laugh, but Mahler was truly disillusioned (this is more apparent in his later work), and it shows during the moments he strives to reveal the beauty that surrounds us. The 1st movement of the 9th is a case in point. Schubert and Schumann are perhaps Mahler's true ancestors.

Quote:
Bruckner is, how to put it, repetitious, yet I experience heightened states of spirit when taken in by his music, much like Bach's structures. Cycles, oceans of music washing over me. I will really try and get my Celi ones up, it's just that I have never used EAC and LAME to convert to mp3s before and it's my wife's computer and I want her to set it up the way she prefers. I am going to do it though because his renditions destroy all others. Have you heard a 7th yet? And don't underestimate the 6th--some people say there's nothing to it because it is devoid of bombast but oh man, it is sublime.


I read somewhere a quote that sums up the difference between Mahler and Bruckner..."Bruckner found God and Mahler searched for god"!

Yes, I've heard the 7th under Georg Tintner, only twice so far, but god this is a great work. I also have a Celi 5th and 8th (together on one set) which I haven't listened to just yet (recorded live in the 70's I think). I also bought 8th's from Horenstein, Inbal (1887 edition) and Karajan (one being the 1887 edition and the other with the Vienna Phil). I have two 9ths...the Furtwangler you posted and a Horenstein 9th that came with a Mahler 1st. As for the 6th, I bought Klemperer's version and was carried away. I love the Bruckner 6th.

Basically, the 8th is my center point at the moment (thank god for used CD stores here in Tucson)...

I'm looking forward to hearing more Celi (thanks in advance!!!)..I getting ready to hear his 8th soon, since I feel more prepared after Karajan's versions.

I like your reference to "oceans" of music in regards to Bruckner's style...thats how I percieve the sounds and phrasing as well...

Quote:
OK, I've finished it all in one go, but I'm still mulling it over. My son liked it! And I'm getting Barbirolli's darkness like you said--It's not all up front, very sinister. More on this after a second dose.


With a conductor like Barbirolli, layers of meaning are revealed slowly, and because a good comparision sometimes can shed more light on any given interpetation...I was thinking of posting Thomas Sanderling's famous recording from 1995, which is out of print and goes for about $125 on Amazon!! The best recorded percussion I've ever heard in Mahler, and with a more objective viewpoint than Barbirolli...more classical...more like the cool, distant eye of Kurosawa...gazing apathetically over a universe, with no judgement or conceit or morals. According to Mahler reviewer Tony Duggan, Sanderling treats the 6th as a classical symphony, rather than a personal journey through the heart of darkness.
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Leo K



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 274
Location: Tucson...with all the smiling ladies!

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:48 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Jérôme wrote:
Thanks again for this post, Mr Leo. This Sanderling recording is absolutely gorgeous. The overall sound of the recording is splendid and I particularly enjoyed the brass and woodwinds in the Andante... but everything is well-balanced in this recording... Haven't listened to the 4th movement yet. But in my opinion this could be the classic guide to Mahler's 6th symphony.
I'll take some time to read more attentively Tony Dugan's review but I'd like to quote an essential remark : "The work's classical structure also implies the same creative detachment crucially demanded by classical tragedy and I believe any performance that's going to make us appreciate the Sixth's Modernism has to take this into account too (...)."
Interesting how Dugan does not dismiss Barbirolli for the same reason and yet, one can argue that Barbirolli's performance, as well as Bernstein's but in a different manner, lacks the detachment of classical tragedy in emphasizing gloom and despair... Just a matter of point of view, I suppose. I personally consider Bernstein's version impressive in its own way.


Jérôme, I'm glad you dig this recording...it's an approach I'm just starting to appreciate more as well, since I generally prefer the subjective "gloom and despair" versions.

This (detachment...classical) approach really reminds me of Karajan's famous version from the 70's---with the Berlin Phil. The Karayan comes really close to this objective approach as well, and since the Karajan has always been my ultimate 6th, I'd say I was actually more sympathetic with the objective approach without really acknowledging it.

It took me a long time to get back to the Karajan...I could just remember the icey distinct colors he pulled from the Berlin Philharmonic, which really started to appeal to me subjectively...and I finally bought it again used last spring for a great price.

If you like this approach I would also recommend the Boulez recording. I've still got to listen more to his version, but I will still recommend as another "essential" reading.

Yes, Barbirolli is the most subjective out there, and Bernstein is next door (and the one I've heard the most). Barbirolli is very special, and his version remains hors concours --as Duggan likes to say. Duggan is not entirely dismissive, and even though I don't agree with all his opinions, I find them enlightening. Here is Duggan's review of the Barbirolli:

Which brings me finally to Sir John Barbirolli and the New Philharmonia on EMI. (Either CZS5 69349-2 coupled with Strauss's Ein Heldenleben; or CZS7 67816-2 coupled with Strauss's Metamorphosen). There's no doubt in my mind that this recording is unique: a one-off, mould-breaking account that should be on every Mahlerite's shelf whatever other version they have. I've owned every version since it was released and cannot conceive of being without it. And yet I think it ultimately fails as a guide to this great work but as a noble failure by a conductor of the highest integrity. The very expansive tempo for the first movement, with opening basses playing marcato rather than staccato, is a fatal flaw because it weighs down the music with too much tragedy at the point in the developing drama where it should retain liberal amounts of energy and fire. It also ignores completely Mahler's express marking. The pastoral music with cowbells also sounds fatally earthbound. It's all impressive on its own terms, though. Especially the way Barbirolli hangs on to it all like grim death, bringing out instrumental details other recordings only hint at. But still the effect is rather like that of an Edwardian actor manager "hamming" Shakespeare. As if Barbirolli is shouting at us all the time. There really needs to be some light let in here or the unremitting horror that Barbirolli seems determined to visit on us just becomes gratuitous. In the second movement there is another expansive tempo that goes with what has just gone and this, as in parts of the first movement, allows us to hear some more details usually missed: inner string harmonies, for example. Again, though, the effect too heavy-footed. The Andante works better, with Barbirolli's humanity and feeling showing through. The last movement at last takes fire but there is still not enough of the hero before the fall with which to compare the hero at or after the fall. As, to a lesser extent, with Rattle this is a long way from the symphonic argument I believe is demanded and which you will hear under Sanderling and others, and which makes Mahler's tragic point much better. If Bernstein and Tennstedt turned a Tragedy into a Melodrama, Barbirolli takes a Greek Tragedy and makes it Jacobean. But hear other versions first, read up on the work, and then hear Barbirolli for yourselves.
_________________
http://musicisrotted.blogspot.com/

http://georgannename.blogspot.com/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Local Gentry Forum Index -> -> The Record Room All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


© 2007 Informe.com. Get Free Forum Hosting
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Software tags powered by Software Informer
PurplePearl_C 1.02 Theme was programmed by DEVPPL JavaScript Forum
Images were made by DEVPPL Flash Games