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Joel5000



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:06 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Not trying to start a problem, but is there some reason why the title of this thread isn't offensive, and I just don't get it?
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IanWagner



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:11 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

This is how I feel.


Are there any niggers here tonight? Could you turn on the house lights, please, and could the waiters and waitresses just stop serving, just for a second? And turn off this spot. Now what did he say? "Are there any niggers here tonight?" I know there's one nigger, because I see him back there working. Let's see, there's two niggers. And between those two niggers sits a kike. And there's another kike— that's two kikes and three niggers. And there's a spic. Right? Hmm? There's another spic. Ooh, there's a wop; there's a polack; and, oh, a couple of greaseballs. And there's three lace-curtain Irish micks. And there's one, hip, thick, hunky, funky, boogie. Boogie boogie. Mm-hmm. I got three kikes here, do I hear five kikes? I got five kikes, do I hear six spics, I got six spics, do I hear seven niggers? I got seven niggers. Sold American. I pass with seven niggers, six spics, five micks, four kikes, three guineas, and one wop. Well, I was just trying to make a point, and that is that it's the suppression of the word that gives it the power, the violence, the viciousness. Dig: if President Kennedy would just go on television, and say, "I would like to introduce you to all the niggers in my cabinet," and if he'd just say "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" to every nigger he saw, "boogie boogie boogie boogie boogie," "nigger nigger nigger nigger nigger" 'til nigger didn't mean anything anymore, then you could never make some six-year-old black kid cry because somebody called him a nigger at school.


RIP, Lenny.
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Joel5000



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Well, I agree with you Ian, and that's all well and good for us and Lenny, but it's a pretty damn loaded term. Don't want to get in a big debate over it, but I think that deliberate use of that term to shock is somewhat questionable if we are trying to create a welcoming environment.

No offense Danielle, I'm not trying to call you out and I know that you're not a racist. And this Dempsey guy sounds interesting.
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IanWagner



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:24 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

I think words only have the power and offense we invest in them. But I very much respect your different opinion. I'll think more about this.
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zelilgirlI1ncenu



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 265
Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:28 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Joel5000 wrote:
Not trying to start a problem, but is there some reason why the title of this thread isn't offensive, and I just don't get it?


Dooley, Brian. Black and Green: The Fight for Civil Rights in Northern Ireland and Black America. London: Pluto Press, 1998.

Also from this New York Times article :
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/11/opinion/11davis.html?ex=1331269200&en=1e36353fba1dc981&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

In recent years, Irish writers have taken up the idea of racial difference themselves, turning it into an empowering distinction. Think of the white working-class musician in Roddy Doyle’s 1987 novel, “The Commitments,” whose identification with American soul music leads him to conclude that the “Irish are the niggers of Europe.” “Say it loud,” he tells his band, “I’m black and I’m proud.”


The explanation is iin the listening.

Damien Dempsey

Colony

I sing the song of the colony
How many years and you're still not free
And your mother cries and you ask god why
Greed is the knife and the scars run deep
How many races with much reason to weep
And your children cry
And you ask god why

Annie, she came from Dunlavin Town
The TB came and killed her family all around
Population booms
Eleven in two rooms
Katie she came from down Townsend street
Ten in a bed and no shoes on their feet
1916 came
They played the patriots game
Freddy, he came from the Iveagh flats
Tenement slums and infested with rats
Sleeping on damp straw
Trying not to break the law
Thomas, he came from Kilmaine in Mayo
Semi starvation was the only life you'd know
In a two room shack
Then jailed in Letterfrack

I look to the east, I look to the west
To the north and the south, and I'm not too impressed
Time after time
After crime after crime
They raped, robbed, pillaged, enslaved and murdered
Jesus Christ was their god and they done it in his name
So he could take the blame if it's not all a game
With bible in one hand and a sword in the other
They came to purify my land of my Gaelic Irish mothers
And fathers, and sisters and brothers
With our own ancient customs, laws, music, art
Way of life and culture
Tribal in structure
We had a civilisation
When they were still neanderthal nations
We suffer with the Native American, the Indian in Asia
Aboriginal Australia
The African people with their history so deep
And our children still weep and our lives are still cheap
You came from Germany, from France, from England
And from Spain
From Belgium and from Portugal
You all done much the same

You took what was not yours
Went against your own bible
You broke your own laws
Just to out do the rival
But did you ever apologize
For the hundreds and millions of lives
You destroyed and terrorised
Or have you never realized
Did you never feel shame
For what was done in your country's name
And find out who's to blame and why they were so inhumane
And still they teach you in your school
About those glorious days of rule
And how it's your destiny to be
Superior to me
But if you've any kind of mind
You'll see that all human kind
Are the children of this earth
And your hate for them will chew you up and spit you out

You'll never kill our will to be free, to be free
You'll never kill our will to be free, to be free
You'll never kill our will to be free, to be free
Inside our minds we hold, hold the key
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zelilgirlI1ncenu



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

IanWagner wrote:
I think words only have the power and offense we invest in them. But I very much respect your different opinion. I'll think more about this.


Ian, I hope you take some time to listen to Damien Dempsey. Start with Seize the Day. Bruce Springsteen is a big influence on him too, and he is pure soul.
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Joel5000



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:38 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.

I still think an Irish person in any US inner-city that used the term around young black Americans might be looking at a beat-down. Not condoning that, just being realistic. They may not have seen The Commitments.
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IanWagner



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:46 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

zelilgirlI1ncenu wrote:
IanWagner wrote:
I think words only have the power and offense we invest in them. But I very much respect your different opinion. I'll think more about this.


Ian, I hope you take some time to listen to Damien Dempsey. Start with Seize the Day. Bruce Springsteen is a big influence on him too, and he is pure soul.


I shall!
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zelilgirlI1ncenu



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:02 am    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Furthermore, in Cromwellian times, as pointed out in my review of To Hell or Barbados, 50 000 Irish people were shipped out of Ireland into slavery.

He also sings about the Choctaw nation (who supported the struggle of the Irish) and the Irish, in Shots.

Here is what he said in an interview :

And how do Americans react to an Irish man singing about the Choctaw nation?

“Oh very good. It’s gone down well anywhere I’ve played it. In Chicago it went down very well. And on the tour last year in America it seemed to go down – all the people were asking for it, all the Americans were asking for it. They thought it was a great thing for someone to write a song about that. And I thanked them and apologized for some of the Irish-Americans who, and some of the Irish around the world who I apologize for, who were tyrants. The Irish-Americans seemed to love the historical nature of some of the songs that I sing. The Colony and Choctaw Nation seemed to go down best with the Irish-Americans.”
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zelilgirlI1ncenu



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

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Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:23 am    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Joel5000 wrote:
Well, I agree with you Ian, and that's all well and good for us and Lenny, but it's a pretty damn loaded term. Don't want to get in a big debate over it, but I think that deliberate use of that term to shock is somewhat questionable if we are trying to create a welcoming environment.

No offense Danielle, I'm not trying to call you out and I know that you're not a racist. And this Dempsey guy sounds interesting.


In order to clarify a little more I changed the title of the thread.

"The idea of appropriating certain hegemonic elements for use within and by a minority group has had many successful applications in postcolonial, Third World, feminist, minority, and gay and lesbian movements.[15]Group names such as NWA (“Niggers with an Attitude”) and Queer Nation exemplify such efforts to integrate formerly derogatory labels by giving them a novel, positive spin.Such groups employ techniques of mimicry[16] and bricolage in order to buttress their own causes, drawing upon a variety of discourses, both hegemonic and otherwise, for their stock of vocabulary and images.More important than the origin of these discourses is the fact that the group members are now representingthemselves instead of merely being represented.Speaking in one’s own voice proves to be the ultimate measure of a movement’s viability, even if one borrows from the very discourse one is challenging.[17]"

http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~svan/Re-Appropriating.html

The point about Damien Dempsey is that he makes the links between the way Black people are treated and the way the Irish were treated in the past, how it has affected their psyche and and national identity.

From a musical point of view, he has willingly assimilated reggae beats to his music, and with his voice, he also points to the analogies between the traditional mode of singing as sung by the Seanchai, and African singing, which I believe uses different scales from the Western ones.

Listen to the way he elongates his notes on for example Seize the Day or Masaai.

Pipes are also used in much African music.

So Damien himself draws the similarities between world cultures in order to open up the international dimension of both his political and artistic vision.

So let's open this thread to "Men with An Attitude".
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zelilgirlI1ncenu



Joined: 27 Jun 2007

Posts: 265
Location: Dublin

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:25 pm    Post subject: If a post contains some illegal issues you may abuse on it - just click Abuse and fill the form Reply with quote

Since the board is reaaaaally quiet, I'm bumping my own thread.

Dont hesitate to download at least Seize the Day. I promise no disappointment. HIS VOICE HAS TO BE HEARD.
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